Below is a transcript of the chat discussion that took place on Sunday June 22, 2008 as part of our first webinar (note - the times are not adjusted for daylight saving so the event actually took place one hour later, Israel time):

[22/06 20:41] <gywst> Live Q&A - One-hour Chat discussion(login or register first) with Jeremy. He will be online to answer and respond in real-time. Sunday June 22, 3:30-4:30pm (EDT)/ 12:30-1:30pm (PDT) (22:30 Israel)

[22/06 21:28] jeremy has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 21:29] <david> Good evening Jeremy

[22/06 21:29] <jeremy> hi david!

[22/06 21:29] <gywst> Hello :-)

 [22/06 21:34] Jon Brooks has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 21:34] <jeremy> hello Jon!

[22/06 21:34] <gywst> Hello Jon

[22/06 21:34] <Jon Brooks> hello

[22/06 21:35] <david> Hi

[22/06 21:35] <david> Jeremy, why don't you get the discussion started?

[22/06 21:36] <jeremy> here's the thing - this is an informal chat - which can be based on the environmental issues i bring up in the ppt on our site - or other related things.

[22/06 21:36] <Jon Brooks> other than Jeremy, may I ask everyone else to identify themselves? I'm Jon Brooks from New York

[22/06 21:36] <jeremy> the other people logged on are connected to the Heschel Center here in Israel - why don't you present yourself

[22/06 21:36] <david> I'm David Paran Tel Aviv

[22/06 21:36] <gywst> I'm Guy from Israel

[22/06 21:36] <jeremy> and in general anyone signing on - shold say a few words about themselves

[22/06 21:37] <Jon Brooks> ok... I co-chair the enviro practice at Phillips Nizer, an NYC-based law firm

[22/06 21:37] <david> I'm in charge of Resource Development at the Heschel Center

[22/06 21:37] <jeremy> so i'm Jeremy Benstein, assoc dir. of the Heschel Center

[22/06 21:38] <jeremy> just a word about the focus of the topic: we were using Shavuot as an opportune time to try to generate some discussion and not just about the chag - but about env. values in general - in this case env. justice

[22/06 21:39] <jeremy> which as i tried to show is a subtext of the holiday - and more generally - something relevant to all celebrations and jewish tradition in general

[22/06 21:40] <david> You're ppt uses the Shvuot example to show how issues of environmental sustainability and jsutice are linked together in tradition

[22/06 21:40] <david> But that was a mainly agrarian society

[22/06 21:41] <david> Is the linakge today more tenuous/

[22/06 21:41] <david> ?

[22/06 21:41] <jeremy> yes, that's true - it is indeed one of the biggest challenges of this (post?) modern period to figure out how to "update" those values

[22/06 21:42] <jeremy> but i don't think that the connections btw justice and sust. are more tenuous today

[22/06 21:42] <jeremy> or at least the env movement is rediscovering linkages that the Bible had firmly in place eons ago

[22/06 21:43] <david> So what would be the equivalent of peah today (leaving the corner of the field for non-land-owners)?

[22/06 21:44] Guest392 has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 21:44] <jeremy> one of my favorite exx is "table to table" - getting food from restaurants and semachot to peole who can use it

[22/06 21:44] Hillel Gray has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 21:44] kmagilavy has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 21:44] <jeremy> 392- care to identify yourself

[22/06 21:44] <jeremy> ?

[22/06 21:44] <jeremy> Hi Hillel! long time no hear...

[22/06 21:45] <Hillel Gray> greetings Jeremy

[22/06 21:45] <Hillel Gray> (can you "hear" me?)

[22/06 21:45] <Hillel Gray> hope you're all doing well...

[22/06 21:45] <jeremy> if all of you who have just joined - 392, Hillel and Kay can see the whole chat - you can see the stuff we've strted "talking" about

[22/06 21:46] <kmagilavy> Volunteer for the American Friends of the Heschel Center, and avid student of Jeremy's work

[22/06 21:46] <david> Hi I'm David from Tel Aviv (heschel Center)

[22/06 21:46] <jeremy> (blush)

 [22/06 21:47] Guest467 has joined the chatbox.

 [22/06 21:47] <jeremy> curious to know - we have israel and a few American cities represented - were any of the nature or env. links i outlined in the ppt a part of the shavuot celebrations in your communities?

[22/06 21:47] <david> Jeremy just mentioned the practice of table-to-table as a modern equivalent of peah

[22/06 21:48] <david> Maybe you'd better explain..

[22/06 21:48] <jeremy> and 467 - and 392 - feel free to identify yourselves

[22/06 21:48] Jon Brooks has left the chatbox.

[22/06 21:48] Guest392 has left the chatbox.

[22/06 21:49] <jeremy> well in ppt - i strted with the obvious "two sides of the holiday" - which olds true for every major jewish holiday incl Shabbat - both nature and history

[22/06 21:49] <Hillel Gray> [fyi I'm formerly w/Natl Env Law Ctr; now finishing up PhD at Univ of Chicago]

[22/06 21:49] <kmagilavy> From the Book of Ruth, we are reminded how important gleaning is to the poor and the landless. Do have thoughts about how we bring this forward into these times where the price of food and the impact of globalization

[22/06 21:49] <jeremy> but went on to show that since shavuout is about owning land - it was crucial to connect te chag to ways the poor can be involved as well

[22/06 21:50] <kmagilavy> are creating empty tables world wide?

[22/06 21:50] Guest467 has left the chatbox.

[22/06 21:50] Eric Rosenblum has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 21:51] <jeremy> well in Ruth - they didn't need CSAs - all agriculture was local, organic and community suported!

[22/06 21:51] <jeremy> welcome eric

[22/06 21:51] <Eric Rosenblum> Hello

[22/06 21:52] <david> :)

[22/06 21:52] <jeremy> it's amazing how we so easily accept that basic life support things that people should have a right to - i'm thinking both of water and food

[22/06 21:53] <jeremy> are so easily commodified and are rapidly becoming if not luxury items

[22/06 21:53] <Eric Rosenblum> I believe you were questioning how we could find a correlate for gleaning to help with the global food crisis today, were you not? I'd like to hear more thoughts about that.

[22/06 21:53] <jeremy> then things that larger and larger segments of the worldwide pop. can't afford

[22/06 21:54] <kmagilavy> exactly, Eric. thanks.

[22/06 21:54] <Hillel Gray> the urban poor here have food, it's the organic and perhaps better quality produce that they might consider a luxury item

[22/06 21:55] <jeremy> i'd like to hear everyone;s thoughts on that

[22/06 21:55] <david> Clean water is becoming a luxury item here!

[22/06 21:55] <Hillel Gray> and they don't have access to the agribusinesses far away...

[22/06 21:55] <david> Those that can afford it buy mineral water

[22/06 21:55] <david> The qualityof tao-water is continually detriorating

[22/06 21:55] <Hillel Gray> but I suppose you could say that we've institutionalized Pe'ah via food stamps (?!)

[22/06 21:56] <david> I think that the idea of peah is as Jeremy said, of justice

[22/06 21:56] <david> That everyone has a right to a basic part of resources

[22/06 21:57] <jeremy> well there are a lot of angles - no govt program like food stamps really fits the bill of voluntary setting aside a certain percentage of the "profit" for those without access to the means of production

[22/06 21:57] <david> In which case, with my example, it would be our responsibility to ensure that everyone has access to clean water

[22/06 21:57] <kmagilavy> When I visited Israel in March, the farmers at Kibbutz Tzuba told me that, one of the conditions of the hechser on their winery

[22/06 21:57] <jeremy> i agree with david - its about rights to resources - rather than affordability of commodities

[22/06 21:58] <kmagilavy> was that they donate all of their under-size apples to food distribution groups.

[22/06 21:59] <david> The interesting thing about gleaning, though,

[22/06 21:59] <david> was that it wasn't "food distribution"

[22/06 21:59] <jeremy> so back to the example - farmers need to think about how to implelemtn that value in their work today, which s different from biblical agrarianism

[22/06 21:59] <david> since the recipients gathered themselves (laboured)

[22/06 22:00] <jeremy> but i think the corporate world also has to figure out how to translate the values in some form of CSR - corporate social resp.

[22/06 22:00] <david> I think that here was an element of kavod lost in institutional charity

[22/06 22:00] <jeremy> indeed that retains the dignity of the recipient in sharing in the worl

[22/06 22:00] <jeremy> work

[22/06 22:00] <kmagilavy> unfortunately for the urban poor, there are many links in the food distribution chain between them and the farmer

[22/06 22:00] <david> CSR is definitely a good analogy

[22/06 22:01] <jeremy> very true - i think the distance is part of the problem

[22/06 22:01] <Eric Rosenblum> I think Jeremy’s right: the difference between food stamps and pe’ah seems to be that while gleaning the poor actually complete the “production” of their food: the only difference is that they didn’t ow

[22/06 22:01] <jeremy> the bureaucratic distance - that agribusiness takes pride in

[22/06 22:02] <Hillel Gray> but distance can also be an advantage, in terms of forms of tzedakah (ie anonymity)

[22/06 22:02] <Eric Rosenblum> own the land or plant the seeds.

[22/06 22:02] <kmagilavy> Unfortunately, for most corporate philanthropy groups, the measure of effectiveness is only how much money goes out -

[22/06 22:02] <Eric Rosenblum> Do you get the sense from Ruth that gleaning was hard work?

[22/06 22:03] <kmagilavy> not how many are actually fed

[22/06 22:03] <jeremy> i think these acts are significantly not classed as tzdaka - since the poor as eric points out take part in the production itself

[22/06 22:03] <kmagilavy> I know from personal experience that it is. However, in Ruth,

[22/06 22:03] <kmagilavy> Boaz specifically instructs his workers to leave grain behind.

[22/06 22:03] <Hillel Gray> sure (eric) pe'ah is quite different. How can the poor complete the production of commodities elsewhere?

[22/06 22:04] <jeremy> ...probably why the older namomi doesn't do it...

[22/06 22:04] <david> Uban agriculture?

[22/06 22:04] <Eric Rosenblum> Well I guess the closes we have is like old Work Projects Administration (WPA) under Roosevelt.

[22/06 22:04] <david> What if corporations provided space (rooftops?) for agriculture for urban poor?

[22/06 22:05] <Hillel Gray> I mean given current conditions...

[22/06 22:05] <Eric Rosenblum> I think you have a grant-worthy idea there...

[22/06 22:05] <jeremy> interesting ? hillel - maybe instead of selling "seconds" - they could be provided to workshops for the unemployed?

[22/06 22:05] <Eric Rosenblum> Green roofs and CSA in one fell swoop!

[22/06 22:05] <kmagilavy> There is an organization in NYC called City Farms - part of Just Food

[22/06 22:06] <kmagilavy> NOFA-NY, Cornell Cooperative Extension and other Ag groups

[22/06 22:06] <jeremy> i agree that food is crucial but its not the whole story

[22/06 22:06] <kmagilavy> help large community gardens and institutional gardens increase their yields

[22/06 22:06] <Hillel Gray> jeremy -- not sure what workshops you have in mind. But the urban poor -- they're not necessarily unemployed, right?

[22/06 22:07] <kmagilavy> some of the increase goes back into the emergency food pantry system.

[22/06 22:07] <david> Correct - I keep thinking of those two women who sued McDonalds

[22/06 22:07] <jeremy> no - but there are different kinds of poverty, underprivelege, underwork etc

[22/06 22:07] <david> They lived in ab urban area (Boston?) where McD's was the only source of fresh food

[22/06 22:08] <david> And they sued for the resultant obesity!

[22/06 22:08] <kmagilavy> Just Food's surveys found that there was no fresh food in

[22/06 22:08] <jeremy> i was just thinking of translating the pe'ah into "core business" categories for corporations

[22/06 22:09] <jeremy> not making them deal with agriculture and food which isn't their bag

[22/06 22:09] <kmagilavy> food pantry system. JF's activities needed to be

[22/06 22:10] <kmagilavy> Hello?

[22/06 22:11] <Hillel Gray> (trying to sort out the threads...)

[22/06 22:11] <jeremy> we''re here

[22/06 22:11] <jeremy> (i think if we set this chat to music it would be like a bach fugue... :))

[22/06 22:12] <jeremy> kay - finish your thought on JF?

[22/06 22:12] <Eric Rosenblum> We seem to have kmagilavy sorting out how best to meet the nutritiional needs of the poor

[22/06 22:12] <kmagilavy> Your 'core business' perspective important.

[22/06 22:13] <Eric Rosenblum> While jeremy is trying to figure out how industrial coprorations can involve the poor in production

[22/06 22:13] <Hillel Gray> Here's a question. Are you/we assuming that the listed Biblical "programs" like pe'ah, are all that they had? Or was it part of a larger system, e.g. include housing? And would we want to bootstr

[22/06 22:13] Joel Benstein has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 22:13] <Eric Rosenblum> Is that about it?

[22/06 22:13] <Hillel Gray> bootstrap from pe'ah et alia to our policy needs today?

[22/06 22:13] <kmagilavy> the trick is to get big companies to think about the impact of their businesses on the

[22/06 22:14] <kmagilavy> availability of basic needs: food, shelter, water, education

[22/06 22:14] <david> I was at a talk by an Australian expert on corporate philanthropy

[22/06 22:14] <jeremy> you're right, hillel - neither tzdaka or pe'ah or any one thing is the whole structure for deealing with social gaps - have to look at the big picture

[22/06 22:14] <david> He uses Ramabm (Maimonides) grades of tzadaka when instructing corporations

[22/06 22:15] <jeremy> and you're right too kay - we always look to govt to meet those needs - and more and more we need to see how the corporate world can shoulder the burden

[22/06 22:15] <kmagilavy> We need a "Tzaddik Quotient," which would give

[22/06 22:15] <jeremy> david - who's he?

[22/06 22:16] <kmagilavy> a score for programs that promote the general welfare.

[22/06 22:16] <david> I'll try to find his name

[22/06 22:16] <jeremy> kay there is a rating system for CSR

[22/06 22:17] <jeremy> (hi joel...)

[22/06 22:17] <kmagilavy> For a car company, for example, the plus points for making flexible fuel vehicles

[22/06 22:17] <kmagilavy> taken out of food production...

[22/06 22:18] <kmagilavy> (keep losing lines of text...)

[22/06 22:18] <jeremy> and affordable lines or special arrangement for car sharing co-ops

[22/06 22:18] <Hillel Gray> corporations do/should shoulder the burden as mediated by govt, aka taxes. Isn't it sufficiently Jewish to work thru the governmental pe'ah system?

[22/06 22:19] <Hillel Gray> (sorry, if I start typing and then the thread moves on...)

[22/06 22:19] <jeremy> what do you think?

[22/06 22:19] <david> Dr Michael Liffman - Centre for Philanthropy and Social Investment - http://www.swinburne.edu.au/business/philanthropy/news.htm

[22/06 22:19] glancer has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 22:19] <kmagilavy> in the U.S., the gov't doesn't pe'ah so well ...

[22/06 22:19] <jeremy> hi haim

[22/06 22:20] <kmagilavy> "Social Investment" - like that

[22/06 22:20] <glancer> hi Jermy, sorry joining so late.

[22/06 22:20] <jeremy> i don't think govts do peah well anywhere - i don't think they're designed to do it

[22/06 22:20] Guest887 has joined the chatbox.

[22/06 22:20] <david> I wonder if the values represented by peah etc could be used to enhance CSR?

[22/06 22:20] <Hillel Gray> what makes you think the govt in US isn't the best thing going (here)?

[22/06 22:20] <david> Give it more substance?

[22/06 22:20] <Hillel Gray> (to kmagilavy)

[22/06 22:21] <david> The idea of peah is institutional individual responsibility

[22/06 22:21] <david> no?

[22/06 22:21] <Hillel Gray> pe'ah reflects both a broad, systematic approach and a sense of proportionality

[22/06 22:21] <Hillel Gray> sounds like govt, in our situation

[22/06 22:22] <Hillel Gray> individuals pay their taxes... individuals glean what they need (ie if welfare is just)

[22/06 22:22] <david> Is welfare just?

[22/06 22:22] <jeremy> but i still think there's a basc diff btw govt handouts and rambm's 8th step say

[22/06 22:22] <Hillel Gray> (Gee I sound like a liberal... Not surprising that Obama lives 2 blocks away...)

[22/06 22:23] <kmagilavy> I think there is an important gap between pe'ah and a welfare system.

[22/06 22:23] <Hillel Gray> what's the gap?

[22/06 22:23] <jeremy> welfare can be just, but it and food stamps are more like tamchui - the soup kitechens then peah

[22/06 22:23] <kmagilavy> The kinds of grassroots - sharing with your neighbors

[22/06 22:23] <Hillel Gray> jeremy -- what's the differences you see?

[22/06 22:23] <kmagilavy> that I was describing with the Just food projects

[22/06 22:24] <kmagilavy> is much more efficient and community-developing

[22/06 22:24] <jeremy> exactly: its thedifference btw xommunity and bureacracy

[22/06 22:24] <Hillel Gray> well, the welfare rights movement got milliions of people fed

[22/06 22:25] <Hillel Gray> and it is/was a Right. not a corporate charity decision...

[22/06 22:25] <jeremy> i think my typing is deteriorating with the lateness....

[22/06 22:25] <Hillel Gray> lol

[22/06 22:25] <kmagilavy> same excuse here - but not so late

[22/06 22:26] <jeremy> its not necessarily a criticism = its just a diff model

[22/06 22:26] <david> I think the corporate example is an interesting way of seeing the difference

[22/06 22:26] <kmagilavy> part of the problem is that we have seen

[22/06 22:26] <david> Welfare is more like a tithe

[22/06 22:26] <kmagilavy> from the current administration that it's pretty easy for

[22/06 22:26] <Hillel Gray> it's my impression that many poor(er) people here want the jobs and food, they're less concerned about community

[22/06 22:26] <Hillel Gray> they'll take Walmarts if they can get it.

[22/06 22:26] <kmagilavy> funding that should go to feeding and teaching about

[22/06 22:27] <kmagilavy> nutrution to get hyjacked into other directions

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[22/06 22:28] <david> I think there's a "Teacg a man to fish" message in here somewhere...

[22/06 22:28] <david> teach* (lateness getting to me, too!)

[22/06 22:29] <kmagilavy> Jeremy, we've been pretty US-centric.

[22/06 22:29] <jeremy> other positive modles to think about are microcredit and microfinance - that helpf give jobs/food and community - its not either or (and i don't see how walmarts is related...)

[22/06 22:29] <Hillel Gray> um, sorting it out, how does one exercise a Right nowadays vis a vis a cmty or corp philanthropy?

[22/06 22:29] <david> Jeremy, do you wnat to make some final comments in the meantime

[22/06 22:29] <kmagilavy> are there developments in Israel (no Walmarts, yet - I think) in this area

[22/06 22:30] Guest887 has left the chatbox.

[22/06 22:30] <david> And then whoever wants is welcome to carry on the discussion

[22/06 22:30] <Eric Rosenblum> Taking another tack on Jeremy’s question, we are commanded to care for our “brother” (not “neighbor”) when he “waxes poor.”

[22/06 22:30] <Eric Rosenblum> Food stamps allow us to support the poor without interacting with them. How can we begin to regard 30 million US poor as “brothers and sisters”?

[22/06 22:31] <kmagilavy> Think we have to work from both directions.

[22/06 22:31] <jeremy> not to mention the global poor who are no less affected by our consumption patterns

[22/06 22:32] <jeremy> i don't have the answer to your question hillel , but it's based somewhere in teh current definition of corporations and their fiduciary resposnsibility to their shareholders - and no responsibility to their com

[22/06 22:32] <jeremy> munities

[22/06 22:32] <Hillel Gray> I'm wondering what pe'ah (or Tanakh) teaches us about the causes of hunger/poverty?

[22/06 22:33] <david> I keep feeling like land was a crucial element in the peah principle

[22/06 22:33] <Hillel Gray> Are the causes we see today as straightforward as Ruth's?

[22/06 22:33] <jeremy> we're going to need to finish up soon - just want to invite anyone who has comments about the content or technique of ths interaction

[22/06 22:33] glancer has left the chatbox.

[22/06 22:33] <david> and am interested in its relevance to the points raised here

[22/06 22:33] Joel Benstein has left the chatbox.

[22/06 22:33] <jeremy> write me - jeremy@heschel.org.il or david - david@...

[22/06 22:33] <jeremy> with suggestions

[22/06 22:34] <kmagilavy> todah rabah

[22/06 22:34] <jeremy> didn't mean to cut anyone off - but todah rabah to all of you...

[22/06 22:34] <Hillel Gray> sweet dreams

[22/06 22:35] <david> Eric, Hillel, Kay, guest: do you think that a phone conference format would work?

[22/06 22:35] <Hillel Gray> (i.e., g'nite

[22/06 22:35] <david> What is a good time for planing an event like this?

[22/06 22:35] <kmagilavy> Better

[22/06 22:35] <jeremy> skype style

[22/06 22:35] <david> Your input is very welcome

[22/06 22:35] <Eric Rosenblum> I think a SKype voice conference would be more efficient.

[22/06 22:35] <Eric Rosenblum> And more personal

[22/06 22:35] <Eric Rosenblum> You can get up to 24 callers on one call.

[22/06 22:35] <david> Thanks Jeremy

[22/06 22:36] <Hillel Gray> I'd want to backup and know, what's the goal beind this?

[22/06 22:36] <kmagilavy> agreed on Skype

[22/06 22:36] <david> And everyone for your comments and particiaption

[22/06 22:36] <Eric Rosenblum> We've used it effectively in the International Water Association for global conferences like this with multiple time zones.

[22/06 22:36] <david> There are two main goals:

[22/06 22:37] <david> 1. to provide information and learning about Judaism, Israel environment and sustainability

[22/06 22:37] <david> 2. to maintain and deepen contact with Heschel Center firends and supporters

[22/06 22:37] <jeremy> i would just say - hillel - a general educ. goal of interactive events based on ideas and materials that i/we are thinking about and using

[22/06 22:37] <david> Thanks Eric. We'll check it for next time

[22/06 22:37] <david> What's the quality like?

[22/06 22:38] <david> Someone suggested phone-in would be better

[22/06 22:38] <jeremy> layla tov to one and all...

[22/06 22:38] <kmagilavy> and to let us interact a bit real-time. Enjoyed meeting you all ..

[22/06 22:38] <Eric Rosenblum> Thanks for doing this

[22/06 22:39] <david> Goodnight. I have to sign off, but I welcome you all to contact us and check out the website

[22/06 22:39] <Hillel Gray> it's pleasant to be back in touch and chat

[22/06 22:40] <Hillel Gray> if the audience were similar, I'd suggest a more focused or higher-level topc set up (e.g., a text)

[22/06 22:40] <Hillel Gray> take care

[22/06 22:41] kmagilavy has left the chatbox.

[22/06 22:41] <jeremy> we're still playing with the format - it would be great to figure out how to do a text together...

[22/06 22:41] Eric Rosenblum has left the chatbox.

[22/06 22:42] <jeremy> kol tuv

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